[volt-kid]

First, I will start off by saying that he can't turn maverick. The idea of Axl going maverick has been discussed multiple times on the boards, I know. Axl is resistant to maverick power and is a new gen prototype, and new gens cannot be affected with maverick power. Not to mention, he is unique. In X8, his data was examined and appeared to be maverick free positive.

Now I do agree that he can't turn maverick, but I don't agree that he cannot be controlled. Allow me to explain. The mavericks in X8 were new gens, so they were not classified as mavericks. But they still rebelled - why? Is it because they believed in different futures and outcomes? Because I think that's what we were supposed to assume. Lets not forget that they were all controlled like puppets. They all seemed to be Sigma. With Axl being a new gen also, he could be controlled like a puppet as well by someone. That wouldn't necessarily mean that he would be a maverick.

And about Lumine, I believe that he himself was just a regular new gen reploid who has later been possessed. As threatening as his words were, I believe that it was because he was controlled also by the one possessed before him. We can say that all new gens have similar data, so lets say that there is a process going on of a data programming that detects, affects and controls only new gens' data. Lumine's only mistake while he was affected is that he was going to kill Axl, maybe because he thought that he was only a proto type. And the new gen data wasn't detected until Axl walked closer to Lumine's body.

Now this last part may go against my case, but convenient for Axl, him also being a prototype could create a change in the process.

[Trip Dering]

I just want to say one thing. Going Maverick and becoming infected with the Sigma Virus are two different things, and if a Reploid, even a new-gen, breaks a law or commits an act of evil, they have gone Maverick.

[Sali]

I'm with Trip Dering in the going Maverick issue. Being a Maverick essentially means doing things that harm humans and/or break the law, so practically every Reploid can go Maverick, because even if they do these things at free will, it's still Maverick behavior and therefore labels them as such.

New gens can be controlled pretty sure, everything Sigma said before his battle made it sound like he was controlling every new gen from the very beginning, that's what the whole 'being him' thing is about in my opinion. But let's think about that - Axl is not a complete new gen but a prototype, as Volt-Kid has stated before me. Sigma himself said he didn't have interest in a prototype, so I don't think controlling Axl would be something he'd make great effort to accomplish.

[『ちびまる子ちゃん』正人]

His data was never examined. The reason Axl can't go Maverick like the other New Gens is because he lacks the infected Sigma DNA on his Copy Chip.

[Oakie620]

Sali, on 20 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

New gens can be controlled pretty sure, everything Sigma said before his battle made it sound like he was controlling every new gen from the very beginning, that's what the whole 'being him' thing is about in my opinion.

ALIA: It's obvious that Sigma's involved, but things are bound to be different this time. It doesn't seem as if he's controlling these new Mavericks like puppets. They all seem to... BE him...

Arby Works, on 20 May 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

His data was never examined. The reason Axl can't go Maverick like the other New Gens is because he lacks the infected Sigma DNA on his Copy Chip.

PALLETTE: We still haven't determined exactly why the new generation Reploids are going Maverick.
LAYER: I'm running simulators right now, but it looks like their virus resistance is absolute.
AXL: Yeah, I'm a new generation prototype and I can confirm that. I'm immune myself.
PALLETTE: But if Axl's a prototype, then that means he could go Maverick, too... But maybe since he's a prototype, he'll be OK. Let's analyze his data to be sure.

SIGMA: Hmph, so you must be the one they call Axl... The prototype of the new Reploids. I'm surprised you've made it this far.
AXL: Hey, stop calling me a prototype. I'm me. And you... you're a Maverick.
SIGMA: You are a puny and weak prototype! Nothing more! Your copy ability is far from developed. That's why you were left out.

LUMINE: The copy chips we new generation Reploids possess... They were derived from data from hundreds of old model Reploids. That means, of course, that Sigma was also included in the mix. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
AXL: Copy chip? Sigma? Does that mean I'll go nuts like he did?
LUMINE: Sorry, but prototypes like you don't have the specs to cause something like that. Besides, was Sigma really crazy? He rebelled against your world. But he had his reasons... The rest of us new Reploids could turn like that at any moment... This decision to wage battle against the old world was made consciously. In other words, we possess the power to go Maverick at will!

[volt-kid]

Trip Dering, on 20 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I just want to say one thing. Going Maverick and becoming infected with the Sigma Virus are two different things, and if a Reploid, even a new-gen, breaks a law or commits an act of evil, they have gone Maverick.

Sali, on 20 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm with Trip Dering in the going Maverick issue. Being a Maverick essentially means doing things that harm humans and/or break the law, so practically every Reploid can go Maverick, because even if they do these things at free will, it's still Maverick behavior and therefore labels them as such.

New gens can be controlled pretty sure, everything Sigma said before his battle made it sound like he was controlling every new gen from the very beginning, that's what the whole 'being him' thing is about in my opinion. But let's think about that - Axl is not a complete new gen but a prototype, as Volt-Kid has stated before me. Sigma himself said he didn't have interest in a prototype, so I don't think controlling Axl would be something he'd make great effort to accomplish.

A reploid's behavior toward crime and evil off of free will doesn't mean that they are mavericks. Maverick power is the virus that effects reploids causing them to malfunction unabling them to control their free will.

[TheDoctor]

I would argue that Capcom should make a distinction between Mavericks and Irregulars to where "Maverick" refers to anyone who has turned against humans, but is otherwise perfectly sane (e.g. they turned of their own free will), and "Irregular" refers to anyone who turns under the influence of glitches, bugs, or viruses.

That said, as it stands now, "Maverick" simply means any Reploid that has broken or will soon break the first law of robotics. It has nothing to do with the virus' power.

[Flame]

except one term was changed by localization. but they both mean the same thing.

also, you seem ti misunderstand. A Reploid wont simply turn against humans for no reason. a normal Reploid would have no reason to.

Mavericks however, be they caused by the Sigma Virus, Nightmare, or defects in their electronic brains, are a danger to themselves and those around them, specifically humans. The Virus made mavericks are the most common ones, which is why the term maverick/irregular has been associated with any reploid who turns against humans specifically.

as for Axl, well, looks like Oaky's beaten me to the punch.

[TheDoctor]

I know they both mean the same thing. I'm saying they should use the two different terms to mean two different things.

And I'm sorry, but I simply cannot understand why a virus/defect would be the only reason a robot with alleged free will could go Maverick.

[Zan]

The very definition of Irregular is one behaving with irregularity. They're abnormal Repliroids with flaws, defects, and so on. Free will has nothing to do with it; those that act wholly of their own accord are not irregulars.

[Princess Luna]

I'm with The Doctor on this one, after all, Reploids have free will, therefore, they have the choice to turn.
This can ^be seen with X, ^As this was the very reason Dr Light sealed X away, to ensure X wouldn't break the first rule of robotics.
The reason it's said to ^be an electronic defect before the Maverick Virus was because Reploids had no reason to harm Humans.

[volt-kid]

Flame, on 21 May 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Mavericks however, be they caused by the Sigma Virus, Nightmare, or defects in their electronic brains, are a danger to themselves and those around them, specifically humans. The Virus made mavericks are the most common ones, which is why the term maverick/irregular has been associated with any reploid who turns against humans specifically.

Exactly.

TheDoctor, on 21 May 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

I know they both mean the same thing. I'm saying they should use the two different terms to mean two different things.

And I'm sorry, but I simply cannot understand why a virus/defect would be the only reason a robot with alleged free will could go Maverick.

They don't mean the same thing. Think of maverick as almost being a drug. It can create mental illnesses and enables the body to act in abnormal behaviors. The difference of mavericks from irregulars is that it's an affect that is similar to a disease that cannot be fought. And a virus/defect is not the only way a reploid can turn. I explain that to the quotes below. There could be an irregular as bad as can be on his own, but if he's not affected by the virus, then he would not be considered a maverick. People think that just being evil would mean maverick, but that's not true. Even the Maverick Hunters assumed that.

hyper15, on 21 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I'm with The Doctor on this one, after all, Reploids have free will, therefore, they have the choice to turn.
This can ^be seen with X, ^As this was the very reason Dr Light sealed X away, to ensure X wouldn't break the first rule of robotics.
The reason it's said to ^be an electronic defect before the Maverick Virus was because Reploids had no reason to harm Humans.

Huh? You're supporting his and my case in your first sentence, but I don't agree with your last. An unaffected maverick can turn since they have free will, so they DO come up with reasons to harm humans.

hyper15, on 21 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

The reason it's said to ^be an electronic defect before the Maverick Virus was because Reploids had no reason to harm Humans.

Flame, on 21 May 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

also, you seem ti misunderstand. A Reploid wont simply turn against humans for no reason. a normal Reploid would have no reason to.

There were no mavericks in the classic series, but the robots still harmed humans. They did that with reason.



Anyway, away from the maverick subject, does my original post about Axl make sense?

[Princess Luna]

Actually, I dont think any robot in the classic series ever broke the first rule of robotics.
Not once in the classic series have the robots killed humans. Wily even said something similar to Mega in the end of MM7.

[Phi-Zero]

Well a lot has certainly been discussed with regard to who is or is not a "Maverick" and what the term actually means. To be fair, i'm not even sure all the characters in the series know what it means entirely either, since there is so much disagreement in the storyline about what constitutes a Maverick.

From what i understand, all Reploids have free will. This is what separates them from Robot Masters, which are limited by the laws of robotics. What keeps Reploids in line is that they have "Suffering Circuits" which cause them to feel guilt or "suffer" whenever they do "bad" things. The Suffering Circuits of Reploids are not as advanced or flexible as X's conscience, but they are still an effective deterrent for keeping Reploids from breaking the law. However, the Maverick Virus turns off the Suffering Circuits of Reploids, making it easier for them to go against humanity of their own free will. In addition, due to being a form of the Maverick Virus, Sigma can manipulate the thought processes of the Reploids he infects. In the worst cases, the Suffering Circuits of infected Reploids can be reversed so that they suffer whenever they don't do evil things, like what happened to poor Flame Hyenard.

New Generation Reploids have the ability to alter themselves with the DNA present in their Copy Chips, including Sigma's. While not outright stated, it is implied that because they have Sigma's DNA in their chips, they can activate it to turn off their Suffering Circuits, effectively giving them the ability to "become Sigma." This is likely what Lumine meant when he said that New Gens can "go Maverick at will." You can imagine the implications of a whole race of robots who can turn off their consciences at will. This doesn't mean that the New Gens are Sigma's puppets; quite the opposite. The New Gens chose to follow Sigma of their own free will (Sigma can be quite persuasive when he wants to be), but they were also capable of betraying him, as Lumine does at the end. They were ultimately unable to be controlled, though maybe that's what Sigma wanted after all: to evolve Reploids to such a point that they could no longer be controlled....

Flame, on 21 May 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

also, you seem ti misunderstand. A Reploid wont simply turn against humans for no reason. a normal Reploid would have no reason to.

I think there have been a number of good reasons why Reploids have turned against society and/or humans. Repliforce did it to preserve its own lives so they wouldn't be terminated. Epsilon/Upsilon did it to allow Reploids to evolve beyond what humans would allow them to be, while still respecting humanity's own rights. Many others rebelled because the institution of the Maverick Hunters is inherently unjust, terminating anyone they consider to be Maverick. The Hunters' existence is completely contrary to the idea of due process and equal rights. Most Reploids may still not want to rebel, but as long as Reploids are treated like second-class citizens, they will always have a good reason to go Maverick.

hyper15, on 21 May 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Actually, I dont think any robot in the classic series ever broke the first rule of robotics.
Not once in the classic series have the robots killed humans. Wily even said something similar to Mega in the end of MM7.

Except probably Wily's robots off-screen, due to having different restrictions so that they can do Wily's bidding, but i agree with you in regard to normal Robot Masters. That said, at least by the time of the American version of MM7, Rock appears to be operating under an advanced interpretation of the laws of robotics.

In the MegaMan universe the only law we are made aware of is something analogous to Asimov's first law: a robot must never harm a human being (or through inaction allow a human being to come to harm). In Asimov's work, some robots reinterpret this law in what is coined the "zeroth law of robotics:" a robot must never harm humanity, or through inaction allow humanity to come to harm. Robots operating under the zeroth law are able to undertake actions that would violate the first law, such as killing human beings, as long as such an action would appear to benefit humanity as a whole. The movie i, Robot has an over-the-top example in the villain Viki, who decides to enslave humankind and kill individual humans in order to preserve the species of humanity as a whole. However, Asimov's works frequently have much more benevolent examples. In the American version of MM7, Mega Man makes it clear that he could kill Wily if he wanted to, but decides against it when he realizes that Bass still cares about Wily. As you can imagine, what counts as "harming humanity" is not very clear-cut, much being left to individual judgment, not to mention that Rock is still free to follow the usual interpretation of the laws. Being able to choose ones interpretation of the laws isn't the same as complete free will, but it is pretty close.

[Zan]

Quote

What keeps Reploids in line is that they have "Suffering Circuits" which cause them to feel guilt or "suffer" whenever they do "bad" things. The Suffering Circuits of Reploids are not as advanced or flexible as X's conscience, but they are still an effective deterrent for keeping Reploids from breaking the law.

Correction:

The "Suffering Circuit" (Kunou Kairou), is not something that keeps Repliroids in line; it is the very source of their free will. It provides the ability to learn from experience what good and evil are, instead of it being forced upon oneself by a set "Conscience Circuit" (Ryoushin Kairo). Right's greatest fear is that those with the ability to "worry", would mistakenly determine the act of killing humans to be an act of justice.

Quote

The Hunters' existence is completely contrary to the idea of due process and equal rights.

Yet the Irregular Hunters also represent the Repliroids being given the right to police their own kind. This matter is clearly one of diverging perspectives; characters like X and Zero would be quick to defend their cause, whereas others would condemn them for the many innocents that might be hunted down among the true menaces to society.

Quote

they will always have a good reason to go Maverick.

Though the label has been thrown around, as a derogatory term with a strong stigma attached to it, neither freedom fighters nor common criminals are "irregulars."

Quote

In the American version of MM7, Mega Man makes it clear that he could kill Wily if he wanted to, but decides against it when he realizes that Bass still cares about Wily.

That extra line doesn't change the fact that Rock hesitated to pull the trigger and ultimately failed. He's not more than a robot.

[Phi-Zero]

Zan, on 22 May 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Correction:

The "Suffering Circuit" (Kunou Kairou), is not something that keeps Repliroids in line; it is the very source of their free will. It provides the ability to learn from experience what good and evil are, instead of it being forced upon oneself by a set "Conscience Circuit" (Ryoushin Kairo). Right's greatest fear is that those with the ability to "worry", would mistakenly determine the act of killing humans to be an act of justice.

I agree that X's Suffering Circuit functions as you describe. Still, it's not clear how flexible most Reploids' Suffering Circuits are, being imperfectly copied from X. Thus, the usual way i interpret how Reploids' Suffering Circuits behave is as an intermediate between true conscience (X) and fixed morality (Robot Masters). The simplest explanation i can think of is that Reploids have free will, but they feel bad if they go against what they are supposed to do; they can't control when and why they feel guilt. Thus, they can break the laws of robotics e.g. when necessary, unlike Robot Masters, but they don't learn good and evil from experience by "feeling" like X can. ("He thinks more deeply than the rest of us," as Sigma puts it in 'Maverick Hunter X'.) Like humans, X is both affected by and the shaper of his own conscience.

Even so, it's possible that by the time of the Zero series technology may have advanced enough that Mutos Reploids, the Guardians, and/or Copy X may also have human-like conscience, particularly if X's DNA has been fully understood and analyzed in that era. This is pretty heavily implied in the case of the Guardians at least. Ergo, it's likely we don't have all the answers, least of all you or me. There's always room for debate!

Zan, on 22 May 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Yet the Irregular Hunters also represent the Repliroids being given the right to police their own kind. This matter is clearly one of diverging perspectives; characters like X and Zero would be quick to defend their cause, whereas others would condemn them for the many innocents that might be hunted down among the true menaces to society.

I completely agree with you. You are very astute in noting that perspective is the key issue here. Sounds like something we would discuss in poly sci class....

Zan, on 22 May 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Though the label has been thrown around, as a derogatory term with a strong stigma attached to it, neither freedom fighters nor common criminals are "irregulars."

As you can clearly see, i can be quite the contrarian when i want to be.

I would argue that because the term "Irregular" or "Maverick" has been used so many different ways by different individuals, it becomes very hard to clearly define who is or isn't one. For example, the general definition of "Irregular/Maverick" as i understand it (correct me if i'm wrong) is any Reploid who chooses to violently turn against society, usually humans. Thus, all freedom fighters, including Zero in the Zero series, would be Irregulars/Mavericks by this strict definition (especially if their opponents included humans). After all, Zero turns against the human-supremacist society violently, right? Of course Zero himself seems to define "Irregular/Maverick" as "evildoer," applying it to Dr. Weil, who is (A) human and (B) dictator. Perhaps the term "Irregular/Maverick" has been so misused and misapplied that it has ceased to have any useful function or meaning, except when put into context.

When there is this much variation in usage, i think it's hard to settle on a single definition for the word.

Zan, on 22 May 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

That extra line doesn't change the fact that Rock hesitated to pull the trigger and ultimately failed. He's not more than a robot.

It's pretty hard to judge someone's capability to make a choice if he did not make it, especially a choice with life-or-death consequences. I thought the point that Rock was "more than a robot" was made sufficiently clear: that seems to be the reason the scene was changed in the American version after all (unless you know something i don't). This may have been conveyed poorly, but to be fair to Capcom, the only other alternative would have been to kill Wily, and then he couldn't come back to menace MegaMan in the sequel, now could he?

As i mentioned earlier, robots like Rock in Asimov's works have done similar things, so regardless of whether or not the laws of robotics are exactly the same in Mega Man's world, it does serve to illuminate something akin to zeroth law rebellion as a possible explanation for Rock's behavior.

[MythosZero]

Honestly I think he cant go maverick, his data is a mystery and the only scenario i see him going maverick because of is the blow to the head by Lumine, Other than that he was never infected with the sigma virus so as of right now hes as Clear free of that as X is.

[Phi-Zero]

MythosZero, on 26 June 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Honestly I think he cant go maverick, his data is a mystery and the only scenario i see him going maverick because of is the blow to the head by Lumine, Other than that he was never infected with the sigma virus so as of right now hes as Clear free of that as X is.

Good point. A virus based upon New Gen data, for example Lumine in case he survived as such, might be able to influence him.
Short of that though, i agree with you and Oakie that Axl is immune to all known variants of the Maverick Virus as Axl himself affirmed:

Oakie620, on 21 May 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

PALLETTE: We still haven't determined exactly why the new generation Reploids are going Maverick.
LAYER: I'm running simulators right now, but it looks like their virus resistance is absolute.
AXL: Yeah, I'm a new generation prototype and I can confirm that. I'm immune myself.
PALLETTE: But if Axl's a prototype, then that means he could go Maverick, too... But maybe since he's a prototype, he'll be OK. Let's analyze his data to be sure.

However, because Axl is a prototype rather than a true New Generation Reploid, Lumine's superior New Gen data might be able to corrupt him anyway.

Thinking about it now, i think i can guess how Axl rids himself of Lumine's control. Allow me to explain: if New Gens are immune to "going Maverick" involuntarily due to being able to influence their own genetics via their Copy Chips (the same ability that also lets them "go Maverick at will" if they have access to Maverick DNA data), then upgrading himself into a New Generation Reploid might shield Axl from Lumine's influence. Of course, but this would also enable Axl to "go Maverick at will" by accessing Lumine's viral code, but as long as Axl chooses not to go Maverick he'd be okay. This would explain why Axl is able to copy Mavericks larger than himself in MegaMan X: Command Mission. He might even be able to access his nifty White Axl form via Lumine's "safe" genetics and still be able to retain control.

What do you all think of this theory? Did i explain it well enough?

[Flame]

I dont think youre understanding how New generation reploids work. Theya re immune to viruses and harmful changes because their copy chip technology, the very thing that lets them change their DNA on the fly, acts as a defense. Harmful changes are reverted like any other DNA change. Prototype or not, he still has a Copy Chip that allows him to copy and transform with DNA. Therefore he is just as immune, and no less, than new Generation Reploids. They dont got maverick because they can change their DNA, they go maverick because they contain SIGMA's DNA.

[Phi-Zero]

Flame, on 30 June 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

I dont think youre understanding how New generation reploids work. Theya re immune to viruses and harmful changes because their copy chip technology, the very thing that lets them change their DNA on the fly, acts as a defense. Harmful changes are reverted like any other DNA change. Prototype or not, he still has a Copy Chip that allows him to copy and transform with DNA. Therefore he is just as immune, and no less, than new Generation Reploids. They dont got maverick because they can change their DNA, they go maverick because they contain SIGMA's DNA.

I totally agree with you. Let me make this clear: you and i are on the same page. That's definitely why Copy Chips provide viral immunity and why Axl is immune.
Like you said Flame, New Gens need viral Maverick DNA like Sigma's in their Copy Chips in order to "go Maverick at will."

Not directed at you Flame, but let me make it clear that New Gens "going Maverick at will" isn't the same as going Maverick via ordinary free will. New Gens can become like viral Mavericks by choice (maybe by turning off their Suffering Circuits or taking on the Maverick's personality) provided that they have Irregular viral DNA. Hopefully no one is confused yet.

That said, Axl does not seem to be able to utilize Reploid DNA as effectively as New Gens do, shown by his inability to take on the shapes of Reploids larger than himself. He also doesn't have access to Sigma's DNA, as you pointed out, but that isn't the only difference between himself and New Generation Reploids.
For example, i doubt any of the New Gens in X9 will have Sigma's data in their Copy Chips to start out with, but the Copy ability of New Gens without Sigma's DNA would still be more advanced than the Copy ability of a prototype like Axl. But in MegaMan X: Command Mission we learn that Axl's Copy ability has been perfected.

Let's assume that, like Axl says, his prototype Copy ability is sufficient to protect him from normal viral infections. However, if Lumine became a virus that constantly rearranges its active DNA as well as New Gens can, then Axl's prototype Copy Chip might not be able to combat the changing viral DNA that is thrown at it, particularly if Lumine has access to more types of DNA data than Axl does. Thus, the corruption might begin to affect Axl, even if his prototype Copy ability slows it down.

However, upgrading Axl's Suffering Cicuit [edit: meant to say "Copy Chip"] might help him control this hypothetical Lumine Virus and also explain Axl's improved Copy powers in 'Command Mission'.

Please let me know anyone if you can't follow or find something wrong with my reasoning here.