[Phi-Zero]

*****WARNING! SPOILERS ABOUT THE FIRST FIVE MEGAMAN X GAMES ARE BELOW!*****

I sometimes reflect to myself that most people will never experience the X series like i did as a kid. After much toil and heart-wrenching, i finally beat MegaMan X for the first time when i was four-years-old. I was completely blown away by the game and its story. Losing to Vile, being motivated by Zero, seeing Zero die in X's hands, and reflecting with X on the edge of the cliff about whether he had truly won. All of this affected me very deeply as a kid and forever influenced my perception of video-game storytelling.

But then after the credits rolled, i received a chilling message: somehow, Sigma was speaking to me from beyond the grave. In time, he would find new bodies and he would return... very soon.

As you can imagine, this made me very pumped when i got my hands on MegaMan X2. However, to my surprise, Sigma was not in the game. It instead focused upon X hunting down the remnants of his army while unraveling a greater mystery, the mystery of Zero, and confronting its guardians, the X-Hunters. Thus i came to adore X2 even more than X1. I remember battling my way into the X-Hunters' fortress, determined to uncover the sinister prophecy about Zero. Of course, i never made it past X-Hunter Stage 3 (i was only five or six), but i was satisfied with the knowledge that my skill alone had brought me that far (i used cheats the first time i played X1).

And then i played MegaMan X3, and i was faced with a completely new villain: Dr. Doppler. The idea that i was facing an unfamiliar threat was exciting to me, and i wanted to see how Dr. Doppler differed from Sigma. Unfortunately, i found my skills lacking and i never beat even two of the bosses. Of course, i eventually planned to beat both X2 and X3, but because i owned neither and my parents merely rented them when i was good from the local Blockbuster, i had to put those thoughts on hold. Over the years i would get the chance to play several other MegaMan games, for example MegaMan Legends 1 and 2, but my opportunity to triumph in X2 and X3 was over once my parents sold my Super Nintendo.

That didn't stop me from brooding over the story, however. I would often dream about Sigma and his message, wondering what he meant by his "soul" and "other bodies." When and how would he make his return? The suspense was tantalizing, and in the process i came to admire the series' creators for not taking the easy way out by hastening his return. It also gave a greater meaning and purpose to the series: Sigma was out there somewhere, like a ghost from X's past, haunting him from the shadows.

Many years later i got to scratch my X series itch once again. I saw MegaMan X5 at my local Blockbuster and i immediately rented it, wondering how i had missed the release of X4. Finally, Sigma was back! However, everyone acted like he had been back for a while, so i suspected his actual reappearance began in X4. Overall i was not too impressed with X5. Not only was the game difficult (for me), but the plot was strange and confusing. I made it as far as Zero Stage 1, but i eventually lost interest. Luckily, i bought a copy of MegaMan X4 a year or two later. Everything that i loved about the old games was present in X4. Not only that: it had a story that i could follow, great music, updated graphics, cool new villains in the form of Repliforce, lots of plot twists, and a whole separate campaign for Zero. I wholeheartedly loved the game, including its end where Sigma (though revealed earlier) was finally confronted. Significant mysteries were now revealed: Sigma had survived in the form of a virus originally derived from Zero, and Zero himself used to be a Maverick creation of Dr. Wily. Finally, X5 made sense to me, and the series' plot threads were coming together.

Eventually i became filled in on some crucial details about X2 and X3: that the secret revealed in X2 was that Zero was the last of Wily's creations and that Vile had returned in X3. So after beating X5, i felt like i had completed an epic masterpiece (in the sense of the series as a whole, since X5 still came across as sloppily executed though not outright terrible). Sigma did make his promised return, and when he did he made a crash (literally). I would be lying though if i said i thought X5 would be the last game. To be honest i would have been deeply upset if X5 had turned out to be the last game (apologies to Mr. Inafune), because i believed the mystery of "the old man" who worked with Sigma (probably some survival of Wily) was too crucial to be left unexplored, especially if this person was still a threat. I thought there would be at least one more chapter to the story. That said, i felt like Sigma's return was appropriately climactic and that the build-up to the revealed secrets was impressive, and there were many interesting twists and turns along the way.

Then after several years, around the same time i bought MegaMan X Collection, i learned the terrible truth: Sigma had been featured in every game all along. There had been no build-up; no deliberate attempt to tantalize players with Sigma's haunting message beyond the end of the second game. I felt like i had been cheated; whereas i believed i was fighting new enemies, i was really just fighting Sigma over and over again. Suddenly, the appeal the X-Hunters had to me was gone: they weren't the brilliant and inspired successors of Sigma determined to carry on their former leader's legacy; they were generic cronies with no initiative of their own that took all their orders from Sigma. Dr. Doppler was not some utopian communist revolutionary for Reploids; he was Sigma's puppet and didn't really have any of his own ideas. For me, X2 and X3 had been proof that Sigma's beliefs would outlive his death, as if in answer to X's realization at the end of X1 that there is no way to kill an idea. This observation, which had colored my perception of those stories as a child and made me love them, was rendered meaningless upon realizing Sigma was the mastermind all along and that the Maverick incidents only occurred because of his direct manipulation.
My childhood had been defined by a lie.

If i were to suggest not including Sigma in remakes of X2 and X3, most fans would probably vehemently disagree, and perhaps rightfully so. Sigma is part of what defines the games for them. Not so for me. But i can't help but wonder how things might have been if the story had been told differently....


So i present these questions to you. Would X2 and X3 (or any of the other X games) have been improved without the inclusion of Sigma? Should Sigma's return have been postponed? Feel free to share other thoughts as well.

[Zan]

Quote

Suddenly, the appeal the X-Hunters had to me was gone: they weren't the brilliant and inspired successors of Sigma determined to carry on their former leader's legacy, they were generic cronies with no initiative of their own that took all their orders from Sigma.

Part of that is based on further misunderstanding. Remember that Sagesse plays a much grander role than people give him credit for, being the one to bring back Sigma, persuading him to take a profound interest in Zero.

Quote

Dr. Doppler was not some utopian communist revolutionary for Reploids: he was Sigma's puppet and didn't really have any of his own ideas

Dr. Doppler arguably pulled out the "evil" card independently of Sigma's interference. He is the principle antagonist of the first Megamission side-story after all. The timeline is kinda wonky, though.

However, if you want another primary antagonist that represents autonomy from Sigma, look no further than X6. The virus might have made Gate somewhat bonkers in the head, he still acted as his own man; Sigma had no remaining conscience to pull any strings there.

[Phi-Zero]

Zan, on 05 May 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Part of that is based on further misunderstanding. Remember that Sagesse plays a much grander role than people give him credit for, being the one to bring back Sigma, persuading him to take a profound interest in Zero.

Yes, but all of that is not obvious in-game and only clearly canon in the manga. Personally, i'd like to think all the X-Hunters were creations of or aspects of Wily, not just Sagesse, but that's just my opinion and also not the point of this thread.

Zan, on 05 May 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Dr. Doppler arguably pulled out the "evil" card independently of Sigma's interference. He is the principle antagonist of the first Megamission side-story after all. The timeline is kinda wonky, though.

However, if you want another primary antagonist that represents autonomy from Sigma, look no further than X6. The virus might have made Gate somewhat bonkers in the head, he still acted as his own man; Sigma had no remaining conscience to pull any strings there.

I agree, which is why i appreciate X6 despite its flaws. I do have a fondness for Gate as a character. Even so, Capcom still threw Sigma in at the end of the game. xP

This thread mostly deals with my impressions about how the story was told or should have been told. It's all just opinion and not fact. I'm just wondering whether anyone else thinks the early X games would have been better if Capcom had chosen to postpone Sigma's return until X4 or X5. That is to say, could Capcom have told a better story that way?

[Haru]

You know i was REALLY surprised he didint try to get in CM some how i mean even in the GB Xtreme games he's their

Asa kid i just started looking at it as...It's not megaman X unless Sigma is involved i mean i suppose it's hard to see another Main villain you know? i mean Sigma just has that weird vibe about him, he knew X and Zero before he went maverick. and was once possibly for a short time a hero

i do see what your getting at i mean X8 ended up surpising me Sigma and Vile were back and after beating sigma on x8 the first time i was like "wth....ok bring on your second form you pile of junk"

And then after lumine walked out my mind instintly Lingererd to the next thought....."oh no....Siga's just junk on the floor what the hell is going on"

I mean What is Sigma in X8 now? Metal being held together by virus energy? was he just....wiped out?



Seeing X2-3 with out sigma whould be very hard X2 mainly because it revealed that sigmas true form was that of a virus....sure if left out this could had been revealed in X5 but to me as a kid at that time its was so much more....twisted?

And sorry but i suppose i loved kaiser Sigma in X3 at that time it was just so epic

[Phi-Zero]

It's funny... was i the only one who grew up thinking Sigma wasn't in X2 or X3? I'm really curious.

[Zan]

I think it's an understandable mistake to make. Sigma appears rather late in the first three X games, whereas he appears right away in X4. If you hadn't reached the final boss, you'd be none the wiser.

I don't however think taking Sigma out would make for a better story. With the direction they took, Sigma is absolutely required in X2 to overshadow Sagesse's role and generate interest in Zero as a bad guy, while X3 is all about explaining what Sigma truly is and what he seeks. As such, the only games that don't require him to be a final boss are both gameboy games, X4, and X6. Sigma should still play a role, though. Kind of like how Dr. Vile took a back seat to Omega.

[Phi-Zero]

Zan, on 13 May 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I think it's an understandable mistake to make. Sigma appears rather late in the first three X games, whereas he appears right away in X4. If you hadn't reached the final boss, you'd be none the wiser.

I don't however think taking Sigma out would make for a better story. With the direction they took, Sigma is absolutely required in X2 to overshadow Sagesse's role and generate interest in Zero as a bad guy, while X3 is all about explaining what Sigma truly is and what he seeks. As such, the only games that don't require him to be a final boss are both gameboy games, X4, and X6. Sigma should still play a role, though. Kind of like how Dr. Vile took a back seat to Omega.

It's funny, i figured that if Capcom were to make a Maverick Hunter X2 and X3, there might have been multiple final bosses, similar to how X and Zero in Maverick Hunter X are the final bosses in Vile's mode. My thinking is if Zero were playable in MHX2, then the last boss for him would probably be Copy Zero, or Copy Zero followed by the "main computer" probably utilizing combat holograms of the X-Hunters in their first forms. In MHX3, Sigma could still be the final boss for X, but i would like to see Dr. Doppler take a more autonomous role. For example, instead of being Sigma's puppet he could be infected with the more common form of the Suffering Virus: instead of having Sigma be a voice controlling him in his head, Doppler's Suffering Circuit would merely be shut off enabling him to more easily go against humanity of his own free will.

In terms of motivation, i view Doppler as being the communist as opposed to Sigma the fascist. Basically he wants to recreate the utopian commune of Dopplertown on a large scale. His backstory would pretty much be the same: he's the first Reploid to receive a doctorate; he discovers the Maverick/Suffering Virus and determines that it works by turning off the Suffering Circuits in Reploids; he encourages the Maverick Hunters to bring him captured Mavericks and restarts their Suffering Circuits using his "neuro-computer;" he founds Dopplertown as a place where Reploids and former Mavericks can live in peace free from the persecution they would receive in the outside world; he becomes frustrated with the injustice in the world and astonished by the peaceful classless society he has created in Dopplertown; while studying the Maverick Virus he has a laboratory accident (caused by Sigma's agents?) or he purposely infects himself with the virus; he then wages war against humanity under the belief that human nature is the cause of the evil in the world and that without humanity Reploids would be better caretakers of nature and each other, forming a utopia. This could factor into the Mavericks' dialogues as well: Tunnel Rhino, being a former miner, could talk about how Reploid workers are oppressed and that they must rise up against their human masters; Neon Tiger could talk about how humanity is destroying the environment and neglecting the other species it shares the planet with and thus must be destroyed to ensure nature's survival; Gravity Beetle could talk about how he believes in Doppler's vision of a better future and that if the humans had been destroyed earlier and the Maverick Hunters had ceased to be his brother Boomer would still be alive; etc..
Dr. Doppler would either revive Sigma believing mistakenly that he would be a valuable ally to Doppler's cause, or Sigma would take advantage of the situation and hijack Doppler's ultimate battle body while the doctor is busy facing off against X.

Too bad Capcom gave up on the remake project, eh?

[Noboru]

Honestly, if I had played the games in that order, I wouldn't blame you for coming to such a conclusion. Giving it a long thought, I also think it would have been very interesting if he hadn't returned at the end of X2 & X3. As you said, facing unfamiliar enemies is exciting. Now, I also feel that without Sigma, it wouldn't exactly feel like an X game, but over all, I feel very strongly on both sides. It all depends on how they would have carried the story.

Not saying that the way the games REALLY were, are bad, I mean, I loved them! Though, imagining Sigma returning in X4, with his extremely tough move's would have felt like it had more build up (lack of a better term) if it were the way you experienced it. That's what I think.

[Phi-Zero]

Noboru, on 17 May 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Honestly, if I had played the games in that order, I wouldn't blame you for coming to such a conclusion. Giving it a long thought, I also think it would have been very interesting if he hadn't returned at the end of X2 & X3. As you said, facing unfamiliar enemies is exciting. Now, I also feel that without Sigma, it wouldn't exactly feel like an X game, but over all, I feel very strongly on both sides. It all depends on how they would have carried the story.

Not saying that the way the games REALLY were, are bad, I mean, I loved them! Though, imagining Sigma returning in X4, with his extremely tough move's would have felt like it had more build up (lack of a better term) if it were the way you experienced it. That's what I think.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Noboru!

Isn't it weird? Because i thought he wasn't in most of the games, it's easier for me to imagine the X series without Sigma. As Lumine points out in X8 though, even when Sigma falls, "the Mavericks" will continue on, because it is impossible to kill an idea. So for me the idea of Mavericks has always been more generalized and the Sigma Mavericks are just one faction of them. Redips, Gate, Doppler, Lumine, Vile, Epsilon/Upsilon, and the rest all go to show that Mavericks will continue to arise as long as Reploids seek to exercise their free will and challenge authority, for better or worse.

Despite still being alive through most of the series in virus form, Sigma still becomes very much a martyr for the Maverick cause long before his "true" death. By rebelling against humanity, Sigma inspired others to do the same, stamping their own brand on the Maverick movement and following in his footsteps. We all know Sigma to be this virus capable of dominating minds, but his charisma is very much underrated. Many Mavericks, particularly in X1 and X8, have joined his crusade willingly. While Sigma and X are clearly evil and good respectively, their organizations (the Mavericks and the Maverick Hunters respectively) are not so clear-cut. The very existence of the Maverick Hunters is testament to a society that treats Reploids like second-class citizens. If a human breaks the law, he or she goes to prison and has access to due process. When a Reploid is even suspected of breaking the law, he or she is terminated by the Maverick Hunters. Thus, it's easy to see how despite X knowing Sigma for the evil megalomaniac that he is, some Reploids view the Maverick Hunters as the agents of oppression, and Sigma as the charismatic hero that dared to stand up to human tyranny. Certain factions of Mavericks, such as Repliforce and the Rebellion, even turned out to be mainly on the side of good. Thus, the ideological battle between the Mavericks and the Maverick Hunters is really between shades of grey, something only X seems to recognize.


Because i'm bored , here's my attempt to break down the different Maverick movements and how they differ from each other:

>The Sigma Mavericks: Basically any Maverick that proudly wears the Velguarder insignia. This group primarily appeals to greedy, chauvinistic, or power-hungry Reploids. Out of all the Maverick groups they take the most extreme stance, determined to wipe out humanity merely because they believe Reploids to be superior, although for Sigma himself this goal is secondary to furthering Reploid evolution.

>The Rebellion Mavericks: Epsilon/Upsilon's group shares a lot in common with the Sigma Mavericks. He agrees with Sigma that Reploids should be allowed to evolve. However, he does not believe humanity must be destroyed to do so. While some of his followers go overboard, the truth is that the Rebellion's leadership only seeks to evolve Reploids in a way that does not impede humanity's equally valuable rights. Basically, they're the "diet coke" of Mavericks.

>The Doppler Army: Doppler appeals to idealistic Reploids. A Reploid would probably join this group rather than Sigma's because of his or her noble tendencies. Doppler wants Reploids to establish a utopia on Earth, and while eliminating humanity is a necessary step to this goal, it is merely a means to an end. Dopplerians don't need to resort to survival-of-the-fittest thinking to justify their motives, but are still more utilitarian than the Rebellion Mavericks.

>Repliforce: For the short time that Repliforce goes rogue, it seeks to establish an independent nation of Reploids that coexists with the nations of humanity. In many ways Repliforce's stance is the most reasonable and so Repliforce still qualifies as a group of "good guys." Repliforce has a difference of opinion with the human governments, but does not see humanity as its enemy. Therefore, Repliforce is only Maverick in the strictest sense of the term.

>The Nightmare Mavericks: If Sigma is the fascist and Doppler is the communist, then Gate is the technocrat. Gate wants to form a nation of Reploids conducive to science and reason, but he believes that only "high-level" Reploids similar in mentality to X and Zero are worthy of ruling; the rest would form an enslaved underclass controlled by the Nightmare virus. Gate doesn't even bother with humans, believing them to be too weak to pose a threat to him. Due to his way of classifying Reploids, most of them would probably not join him by choice, unless they were very powerful or egotistical or knew him personally.

>The Lumine Mavericks: Lumine wants to create a world ruled by New Generation Reploids. However, it is unclear whether he wishes to exterminate humanity like Sigma. Given his dialogue in X8 about the nature of Humans and Reploids, it's possible that he plans to reverse the power structure so that Humans are the servants and Reploids are the masters, though unlikely. Still, he seems very eager to destroy or brainwash all the Old Generation Reploids.

There are other Maverick ideologies as well, but because they are primarily centered around individuals with few other adherents i have not listed them above. Assuming Isoc has similar goals to Wily, he probably wants to enslave humanity by means of a robot overclass, preferably one completely loyal to him. And Redips doesn't seem to care for anyone besides himself because everyone is equally capable of licking his boots. There is also a Reploid mafia in X7 and in the manga that seems more interested in making money than killing humans.


So there are many "flavors" of Maverick-ism, so to speak. Sigma's presence in every game has somewhat overshadowed the differences among Maverick ideologies, but they are nonetheless diverse and abundant. Now that Sigma has taken a leave of absence after X8, i'm curious how Maverick thinking will continue to evolve in a MegaMan X9.

(And yes i know i write too much. )

[Haru]

And it's funny how sigma was pulling the string in almost all those groups ( not the The Rebellion Mavericks of course) i mean i don't know about you but after playing command mission i was kinda re-leaved for his face not to be laughing at me and then hearing him whine that he's gonna return....or i'll rue the day that i foil his plans......*instead i was greeted with some other..guy Redips ...i dunno i kinda wish he had more back story then just command mission

I remember when i was a kid The Doppler Army was such a big thing to look forward to fighting. at the start of the game they seemed pretty solid. i mean Doppler shows he brought back vile in-till you reach him and you find out the old guys just been manipulated.
I kinda wish he would had survived doppler probably could had helped the maverick hunters a bunch (what ever happened to that anti virus btw?)

x4....i remeber this guy in school he actually asked me who that was at the start *face palm*

i liked in x5 that Sigma was your very first boss. that implement of fear was defiantly present the first time i fought him

and sigma...X6...he was hidden pretty well. i cant really say if Gate was manipulated it was more like his stupidly got him in trouble

and then in X7 in went back to normal


then X8 he's kinda like he was in x4? although i was surprised when lumine turned out to be the final boss

meh im ranting i dunno lol