[Marin]

Alright, let's lay down a few basic things before I get started.

• This topic is discussing an article that was recently posted on Cracked suggesting some potential reasons for the existence of misogyny as we know it today. Cracked is meant first and foremost to be entertaining, thus they are not a formal study of any sort--merely theory. They often do a pretty respectable amount of research however.
• Misogyny is a dislike/hatred of females.
• Discussions about misandry (dislike/hatred of males) don't belong here. I'll consider making a separate topic if you guys wanted.
• The point of a discussion is to find the truth, not to find out who is wrong or right.
• Cracked is technically a mature website, however this particular article should have at worst some crude language, crude jokes and controversial suggestions.

Alright, now that that's out of the way...


Recently Cracked posted an article titled "5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women". This article suggested, as the title implies, 5 explanations for misogyny's presence in the world as we know it now. I for one found it interesting. To give a brief topic overview, I'm going to go over each of the 5 reasons briefly. As mentioned above the article itself technically contains a questionable amount of mature language including things that may be considered sexual--*Gasp!*... So google it at your own leisure/risk. I'll be attempting to avoid forcing you to.

On to the reasons!~

Reason #1. We Feel Powerless

This reason suggests that men, as the title pretty blatantly implies, feel powerless compared to women. It suggests that between persuasive hormones screwing with them, the pressure to pretend they don't have these hormones, and perhaps other factors men tend to feel like they get the short end of the stick. It also suggests that most men don't like that. (As compared to... liking it, I guess.)

Reason #2. We Feel Like Manhood Was Stolen from Us at Some Point

/This/ reason suggests that men find society as we know it to be feminine in comparison with all the badassery that lurks in their dreams. It also suggests that because they attribute this to femininity when they feel emasculated they wind up attributing this to females.

Reason #3. We Think You're Conspiring With Our Libido to Ruin Us

This reason suggests that men are afraid / paranoid that women may be trying to use their sex to get something from them or take something from them. Simple enough. However it also goes on to say that testosterone is a far more persuasive hormone than estrogen as far as controlling your urges goes--That is to say it suggests a man's reaction to what they consider attractive is less under their control by quite a significant margin.

Reason #4. We're Trained from Birth to See You as Decoration

Someone just groaned somewhere. Regardless, this reason suggests that many men have difficulty /not/ thinking of women as potential mates. It suggests that women have a much easier time looking past attractiveness than males, resulting in the perceived sexism.

Reason #5: We Were Told That Society Owed Us a Hot Girl

Number five suggests that as kids books / tv / movies / other media teach us, or I should say boys, that everyone can find true love, hero always gets the girl, etcetera. They go on to suggest that this breeds a sense of entitlement boys gain as they become men via complete failure to distinguish fantasy from reality. They believe they're all heroes of their own stories and it would be a violation of some 'unwritten contract' for them to be denied their love interests.

---

Now that we've gone over the five reasons I want to ask you guys and girls alike; what do you think? Are some of the reasons not so spot on, or do they probably only account for a fraction of misogyny? Or are they pretty fair? Could you think of a good reason that was not listed here? Would you like to see me write a version of this topic for females?

[Princess Luna]

What I wrote was stupid and I appologise for thinking this was a joke.
...im just gonna stand in the corner now...

[Arpia]

having just read your post fully I have but one small question bout this...

isn't 1 and 2 the same thing... or at least very similar, are they really seperate points? ...and couldn't the same be said for 4 and 5?
or should I go read the article itself for more info?

or am I just being dense? O_o

anyway, in adding to this, I would think it's somewhat natural behavior we haven't quite (or even can't) get rid of from an age we've left behind. Look at nature, male and female animals do not treat each other as equals, Humans in certain parts of the world still function that way, where women are treated as a comodity among the male population... is a harem really any different from a lion and it's pride? I'm not saying it's right but I think on some level it is slightly instinctive behavior and we probably functioned the same way at some point. After all, no matter how far we've progressed, we are still animals too.

[Marin]

@Hyper15: Um, no. This is not a joke. Thank you for insulting the work I put into writing this. >_> Also, sexism has nothing to do with the topic at hand. o_o

@Arpia: Well, not really... They may be related or correlated with eachother but they're really not the same.

1 is about being in control and 2 is about one's ego. 4 and 5 are completely seperate phenomenons, so I can't even begin to understand how one would propose to generalize them. 4 is about a perpetual stereotype and 5 is about an inability to distinguish reality from fiction.

To be honest, I don't want to debate morality. Morality makes for a terrible discussion that almost always ends in fighting. This isn't about right or wrong. This is about truth or false. So what I want to know from you is: Do you think these proposed causes for misogyny are accurate? If not why not and what do you propose the cause is?

For instance, I think #5 is spot on. I mean who here knows a boy, or even a girl, that grew up being obsessed with love as if they couldn't live without it. Isn't that the stereotype of your average teenager right there? I think the mindset, the whole fallacy that because you were born there needs to be someone out there waiting for you, is very prevelant in our culture in general.

[Metal X]

This is true. Reason #5 is the one that I understand the most.

To be honest, a lot of the other reasons are a little over my head and slightly confusing. But I can think of a great possible reason for misogyny not listed above..

How about Trust issues?


There are a lot of boys/men out there who feel that they have been wronged before, either by a girl toying with his heart, or even worse, breaking it. (Being manipulative, backstabbing, coldhearted, lying, cheating... what-have-you), and therefore they have a very difficult time trusting someone and a big problem with the L word. But no problem saying the word Hate when it comes to shady women.


I don't know about all the other reasons. #5 rings pretty true. We are all born to believe that we're all young princes who have yet to find our princess. I'd like to believe that we ARE the Heroes of our own story, but that's not meant to be an argumentative retort. It's just that if you're not the Main Character of your own personal Life Story, with something to do and hopefully achieve by the end of it.. than who is??

Let's see...

Reason 1 - Powerlessness: I guess men can feel powerless to women in certain cases, but I don't understand in what context you're referring to. Sexuality? Composure? Success? In some cases, Women totally have that over men, but in my opinion it's no reason to hate.

Reason 2 - Stolen Manhood: This one I really don't understand. Do you mean that the real Machismo men out there hate girls simply for being girly??

Reason 3 - Of Conspiring Libidos: Perhaps the Trust Issues I mentioned above relate to this the most, but I do feel that they're separate. Not all men are Neurotic and Paranoid that a girl is only with someone to get what they want. But unfortunately, it does exist, and it certainly has been done before among Politicians, Celebrities and all that other good stuff...

Reason 4 - Trained to see you as Decoration: Well... I can see what Arpia was saying. This does relate to #5 in the sense that it's about upbringing. That we were brought up to view the woman as being a counterpart to the man. That a man is incomplete without a woman. That some people unfortunately only get married to have a "Trophy Wife", a pretty thing to show off at their high-class parties and other sickening social circumstances.
I think the idea of having a Trophy Wife or getting married simply just to be with someone is awful. But I do believe in the fact that Women are potential mates in our society. I mean... what's the alternative? I completely abstinent society?? That is completely unnatural in my opinion.

Reason 5 - Society owed us: I already talked about this, but to clarify further... Society doesn't owe us anything. We're brought up with hopes and dreams that we're gonna find a girl one day and hopefully she's gonna be our Princess and likewise, us; her Knight in Shining Armor. I don't think that this is unrealistic, but at the same time, it doesn't always work out that way.
Sometimes nice guys really do finish last... Girls don't always want a hero or a savior. That's what they call their best friend. The key is, I think, to just be you.. and hope that something works. If one tries to hard and ends up going through hoops over a girl, in the end, it's really not worth it. It only comes off as desperate and perhaps even creepy. And then in the end, the girl ends up not wanting anything to do with that person.


All of these reasons and the last one especially are why I really do think everything happens for a reason. And that if things aren't meant to be.. than that's that. But as far as Misogyny goes, I can't begin to pretend to understand it. The first 4, I kind of have to wrap my head around to try and understand the mentality of it. And I have a feeling that even though I tried, I still didn't grasp it fully or touch upon all points. But either way... The bottom line about all of this is that people shouldn't hate. Period.

[Marin]

@Metal Man X: I think my immediate response to you to try and help you out is to consider that misogyny really shouldn't make sense. When you get down to it misogyny can be broadly classified as a sweeping generalization in and of itself, making it illogical. Therefore while some of these reasons may seem like they could never apply to you remember that humans are very diverse.

On that line of thought, I think that some men don't fall prey to any of these at all and some fall prey to one or more depending on whom they are and what happens to them. Though, the overtones of the article implies that most men are misogynic to a degree. I honestly have no way of arguing for or against that, but it would he a rather harsh reality and I do question exactly how hard it is to avoid any of these reasons. Some of them such as #5 are practically out of the individuals control!

I should clarify that #4, while also relevant to upbringing, is a completely different phenomenon. There's a fine line between someone growing up constantly thinking about females as potential mates and someone growing up thinking that they are entitled to true love and a happily ever after. For instance I think #5 doesn't just apply to men, or even just to straight people. #4 is a much more specific phenomenon generally exclusive to straight/bi men. #4 also has to do with hormones and #5... not so much.

So yeah, they may have similarities but they're definitely seperate reasons to cause misogyny. Oh, and here's a complimentary catchphrase from Marin~ "Hatred gonna hate, haters /always/ hate". It's inevitable. The only thing left to do is attempt to lessen the intensity of the problem. I believe the first step to that is understanding, or copious violence depending on how kooky ya are. lD

Anyway. The whole thing about stealing manhood is basically this: The reasoning states that some men have to restrain themselves from resorting to hyper-masculine behavior and this stresses them out. They wind up starting to believe they're like, freaking Sparticus being oppressed by the existance of females and they may believe many other males feel the same way. Basically they attribute females as the cause for them needing to restrain themselves.

It's a pretty wacky sounding theory, but does it have roots in truth?

[Nintendo_Jones]

I agree with the premise that culture promotes misogyny, but I don't agree with any of the reasons given, except for maybe argument #4. Western culture has promoted misogyny going way back, even before men were denied the "right" to act hyper masculine all the time. Society quietly and unconsciously reinforces gender roles and stereotypes all over the place. I think the most obvious example of misogyny in our culture is the skepticism turned towards rape victims. While it's true that there are male rape victims, the vast majority of them are women. Every time they try and report the crime of rape, we put her under the microscope. We ask what she was wearing, we ask why she was there. We think she probably is making it up. We blame her for getting raped, say she was asking for it and let the rapist get away. That's something called rape culture and it is very real.

The list feels like it's written by a person who doesn't understand that male privilege actually exists. I just went to the post and ctrl+fed the word "privilege." It appears once in the article in the entry for reason #1. I read that entry and it feels so privileged. It feels privileged because they guy tries to pass the buck onto other groups. He doesn't understand that everyone else has the right to freely express themselves or, frankly, to just be wherever they are. You have to control your urges, and I don't about other dudes here, I haven't had problems with overly lewd thoughts since I was like 16.

http://en.wikipedia..../Male_privilege
Part of male privilege, and any other kind of privilege (white privilege, for example), is that you aren't really aware of that privilege. Women understand male privilege. Other races understand white privilege. Men don't recognize male privilege and white people don't recognize white privilege. We might see that other people are disadvantaged, but don't understand that means we're also given an advantage by virtue of our gender or ethnicity.

This kind of stuff is really interesting to me, so I'm glad to see it get brought up on a site like this, which isn't normally as serious. People need to know about this stuff.

These are some pieces that helped me understand male privilege, misogyny, etc. in a real life setting:
http://www.starcityg...y_Daughter.html - This piece is about sexism in gaming. MTG, DnD, and videogames are covered.
http://ilivesweat.tu...lauren-denitzio - Sexism in punk rock. From the perspective of a lesbian frontwoman in a punk rock band. Some of the stuff might be silly, like the comments about men who take off their shirts, but the rest I find valuable.
It seems Derailing for Dummies is down, but if it comes back, I'd recommend that too. It shows how privilege can manifest itself in conversations with the marginalized, thus helping the privileged understand their privilege better.

EDIT: this just showed up in my facebook news feed via SCII pro TheLittleOne.
http://maximgamergir.../people/winning
He was posting a specific link to a boy who made a profile as a joke, but this is the kind of thing Geordie Tate was talking about in the To My Someday Daughter article. Girls can't exist as gamers without being sexualized or viewed as weird or exceptional. A male privilege is the ability to enjoy or excel in most fields without being singled out for gender. In the gaming world, we would never be picked on for having a dick and very rarely would we have to deal with commands of "tits or gtfo" or desperate private messages from nerds looking to brag about how good they are at sex.

[Princess Luna]

...sorry, I read your post wrong >.<
I'll get rid of mine, it was a stupid comment.

[Yllisos Zanon]

I am the kind that, has trust issues. The reasons why I don't like woman, they are manipulative, especially blondes. They will go out with another guy, to just make their boyfriends jealous. I would know, I became that guy on a few occasions. I still, Hate, those woman who did it, but it's water under the bridge now.

Woman are just as confused as men, if not more. There a woman out there, that don't know what they want in man. They will date a few guys, just to open up options. Then when she gets a guy she likes, but then she tries to change him. Later on in their lives, she becomes angry or whatever and says, "you are not the man I fell in love with." Duh, your the one who changed him.

I know you don't want to get into sexism, with the subject. It has more then enough merit, where sexism can be hard to avoid.

Especially people, who need to be honest on the subject. Misogyny, I do have it in me.

[Arpia]

I find it interesting how this above is blamed on the persons gender... going out with a guy just to make an ex or whatever jealous, it may have happened to you but that doesn't mean that it applies to all women. And it's definately not specific to women.
You have to take a step back and think about it. Guy's do it as well. Anyone can have rebounds, flings and one night stands. Anyone can use someone to fulfil some kind of goal and then finish with them when they've got what they wanted, none of it is gender specific.
It's illogical to assume everyone's the same based on one aspect, and gender is simply one aspect of what makes that person individual.

I should mention that I'm not trying to deminish what happened in Yllisos Zanon's case. I'm just saying it's not gender specific.

[JOHNY BOMB!]

@Metal Man X: Ditto on that bro.

All 5 reasons has got me thinking about our society for a bit, and sense we're not taking this article too seriously, don't know how to put this in words but I think some of the context can be explained in form of a joke for reasons #1 and #3 (though I may get some hate for this):

[Marin]

@Reerend Randy: Hoo boy. Well, I read over all this and I'm left with two basic questions... I get that you don't agree with the reasons, but would you mind if I asked you why not specifically? Also, your post kind of derails into sexism. I'm sorry but can you pleeease have some restraint? I made this thread with the specific intent of not having it become about sexism or progressive ideals. I mean honestly you've got this beautiful post right here; you could make your own thread and spread the word easy.

Anyway. There's a certain part of your post that I did want to bring up, namely this part.

Reverend_randy, on 03 April 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

Girls can't exist as gamers without being sexualized or viewed as weird or exceptional. A male privilege is the ability to enjoy or excel in most fields without being singled out for gender.

This is basically Reason #4 in a nutshell, and I wasn't completely sure myself at first glance but when you put it that way #4 makes a lot of sense to me now. Are you sure #5 makes no sense to you though? There are so many angsty teenagers out there right now as living evidence that our media teaches us to expect true love rather than be grateful if we ever manage to get it. In males' case, don't you think that could breed misogyny in the form of blaming women for not sharing their attraction? I mean, out of all the reasons I've felt most confident about #5, though #4 now makes complete sense to me on a core level.

I've also personally met a couple of guys who seemed to suffer from #3. If you so much as flirted or were attractive enough to not need to they immediately distrusted you--a form of hatred. I do question if #3 is common though as I don't see proof of it often.

#1/2 I'm personally not sure about still. I've had a male personally tell me they identified with #1, but that person never once came off as misogynist to me so I don't think they were referring to themselves and thus are not very good evidence.



@Hyper15: It's okay. c:



@Yllisos Zanon: Oh... that's... really unfortunate.

In hindsight, trust issues really fall at least partially under Reason #3, which deals a lot with manipulation and paranoia.



@Arpia: I said this to Metal Man X earlier, but it isn't so much about whether misogyny is right or wrong. Misogyny is a sweeping generalization in and of itself, and thus automatically out of touch with reality. The real question is why is it still a problem despite that fact.

[Arpia]

kay i'm pretty sure this falls under 4, women that shave their heads... I understand it's their choice and all but... it just looks blech o_O which leads me to think that women should look feminine, simply because my mind prefers it.
the only response I can come up with as to why I think that is that women have a right to look feminine... eg attractive >.>
replying with this makes me feel odd though. It's something I see and think yeah, but firmly keep it to myself. Like I said, it's their choice and I respect that. As is it my opinion to be in favour of something more "girly"

[Metal X]

I had more on this before, but I'll just say what I can now before I forget and lose it again...

The punk rock sexism article that Reverend Randy posted is really good. I'm a rocker/individualistic type myself, so I can identify with this one the most, and there were a few eye openers, but not many.

A lot of this article dotes on common sense. The unfortunate fact is that sexism is everywhere no matter where you go. This article proves it.

She mentions right off the bat that there are a bunch of Punk rockers that are all like, "Fuck, sexism. That's not in our scene..." and she calls BS on it right away.

Then she states the obvious, which is more about Pit/show etiquette than anything else I think. - No! You obviously should NOT push and shove ANYONE at full force when your in the Pit at a show. ESPECIALLY a girl. People don't fuckin' get it man. Mosh Pits started off as "Slam Dancing", and what it really is supposed to be is a bunch of dudes, rocking out, bumping into each other and picking each other back up. It's about the commeradery of loving the music you're listening to. But now people are fuckin' idiots. They just go in there ready to start up fights!
- Not to digress, but I was at a hardcore show the other day, and this EXACT scenario happened. One guy completely didn't get it, and started getting riled up, pushing, shoving and waving his fists around like he was ready to fight someone, yelling, "COME ON!! COME ON!!!" And the band itself, although playing extremely violent music, actually had to stop their show over this guy. 'cause it's not about that... It's about something more, which people don't understand...

Which is exactly what this girl went through in the article. Beyond that, the continued disrespect of the "Are you in the band or with the band?" question. And of course the backhanded compliment of, "You really know how to shred! You're a really good guitarists for a girl..."
I can see why that fires her up. To be honest, I don't understand why our society is seemingly wired that way.

I started getting into bands with Female singers - really HEAVY bands with Female FrontWomen that were Awesome! And occasionally I'd meet a guy that would be like, "Aw I can't listen to that shit man!" "Why?" "A woman's singing!" or the nicer ones would say, "I hate girl voices with metal. It doesn't sound right to me..."

This is something I completely disagree with. All women have just as much potential to front, or play whatever they like in any band they want, just like any guy out there. Why does the sterotype exist that a girl who gets into Metal/or extremely heavy, dark obscure music, suddenly mean that she has psychological issues/daddy issues, or is considered just plain weird? It bothers me man... But to the narrowminded, this is not gender specific, and guys can get a bad wrap for listening to all of their "angry music" too... Am I right or what fellas...?


One thing I will bring up, however is this.

Some girls at Punk/Metal shows like to wear VERY, promiscuous and individualistic outfits, to show off how punkrock they are. And this is something that also, kind of bothers me. I'm an individual too; heck, we ALL are... But there comes a point when Individualism becomes asking for Attention. And then of course when they get it, they don't want anything to do with it.

What I'm getting at is that, people might say sexist/weird hornball things at a show, or think hornball thoughts... But on the other hand, could that also be for a reason...? I mean... I'm sorry, but a girl in a tight leather corset, long black hair, tattoos and piercings at a show is BOUND to get some attention. And stir varying amounts of stimulus to those around her.

I guess all I'm saying in regards to that is, if you're gonna wear all your gear... prepare for a stare. (or two...)


In all finality though, what it really comes down to is respecting one another. To go off on what Arpia said about bald girls, I agree... Bald isn't necessarily beautiful.. but regardless of what attracts me, I totally respect it. It's their choice of Individualistic, standing out which is indicative of a very strong personality; which is actually more attractive I think. Same goes for girls with Mohawks. Not my thing, but their personalities have the value of Gold. ( Slightly odd metaphor, but...) What I'm trying to say is that they are insightful, they have more of a thought in their head than the average person and at the end of the day, are more interesting than half of the other narrowminded sexist/masogynistic assholes that we're talking about.

Alrighty! =] ::gets off of his soap box now::

[Arpia]

strange day, there was thing on the radio today about women who are 'natural beauties'. I only caught the end parts of it I think. They touched on being beautiful and knowing it can lead to using it to your advantage to get what you want... I can see this leading in to 3 as men seeing someone whos 'fit and they know it' would be suspicious of them. But it seemed like women themselves were more accusing and paranoid of 'pretty' women. And seemed to have more comments like "being pretty instead of forming a deep personality", very mixed (and slightly angry responses) by women at women. There was this one woman they got on the phone saying that she didn't consider herself to be particularly pretty and never asks anything of anyone bar her husband, but she was hated by all the girls through school and even now her husbands friends aren't permitted to come over without thier wives... she gave one instance where she was walking down the street with her husband, and this random couple walks by and the woman says quite loudly "you had better not look at her." she closed by saying she has feelings too but it seems no one considers her.

I know this is kinda tangent to misogyny but surely it has a place in here to relate someway?

[Marin]

@Arpia: I don't think you're remotely alone in being afraid of being judged for being an individual with your own tastes and no particular desire to adopt someone else's tastes in favor of equality. As of late I've honestly felt a rather strong compassion for men on account of all the reverse hatred they get from extreme feminists, which are not mythical nor a non-threat in my eyes. There's a fine line between equal rights, equal opportunity, and actual equality. I'll be honest. I find the idea of actual equality abominable as a goal. It's one of those things that looks okay on paper, but doesn't really work in reality, and our pursuit of ot has become as bad as the sexism feminists originally fought imo. We are individuals, not to be classified by our sex at all but by whom we are as individuals. I can't help but feel that accepting ideals such as affirmative action we as a society have failed in this regard, setting back equal opportunity by hundreds of years for the sake of an equality that was never even possible to begin with.

@Metal Man X: I also found the other article she linked to be very nice as far as aricles go. All misogyny exists for a reason. The reason does not justify it, but you're right in implying that it matter, imo. Me, I don't get why people get worked up about these 'backhanded' compliments. I mean really, when someone tells me I did something pretty good for a girl I see them as being surprised that I'm both female and that good at something. After all, if we are a minority in a hobby then what are the odds of us also happening to be good? This is really what bugs me about modern feminism. We tend to jump to assumptions and get worked up over things that could easily be explained by awkwardness, poor wording, or simple miscommunication. I feel like a lot of men these days get the short end of the stick, and are raised by those around them to fear acknowledging a woman for being a woman. That honestly bugs me! It doesn't feel fair to men and it's not fair to women either. We are individuals, and some of us are more feminine than others. As a woman, and I don't ientify as a tomboy at all, I'd like to let my voice be heard and say "Hey! Men and women being different is not bad! It doesn't mean one sex is better ban eachother. We're individuals, and I'm feminine and proud of whom I am! I enjoy feeling feminine, so stop terrorizing men into being afraid to acknowledge it by always assuming the worst about whatever they say!"

And there's my soapbox, though I'd desperately like to hear what you guys think.



@Arpia's second post: It's a sad semi truth that girls secretly hate eachother. As a girl I'm afraid I've experienced the relative dissonance that is female to female friendships first hand and observed that they have a statistically uncanny chance at never forming at all or dying due to stupid things. Not all girls are like this, but a disconcertingly large percentage are compared to male to male or even male to female friendships.

I might as well not even be bisexual because the relative likelyhood of me making and keeping a long term female friend is unlikely enough as it is, let alone that friendship developing into something more and that person being okay with my polyamorous lifestyle, let alone on the internet. That's also speaking from experience, sadly.

*Headdesk*

[Metal X]

Marin, on 08 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

All misogyny exists for a reason. The reason does not justify it, but you're right in implying that it matter, imo. Me, I don't get why people get worked up about these 'backhanded' compliments. I mean really, when someone tells me I did something pretty good for a girl I see them as being surprised that I'm both female and that good at something. After all, if we are a minority in a hobby then what are the odds of us also happening to be good? This is really what bugs me about modern feminism. We tend to jump to assumptions and get worked up over things that could easily be explained by awkwardness, poor wording, or simple miscommunication. I feel like a lot of men these days get the short end of the stick, and are raised by those around them to fear acknowledging a woman for being a woman. That honestly bugs me! It doesn't feel fair to men and it's not fair to women either. We are individuals, and some of us are more feminine than others. As a woman, and I don't ientify as a tomboy at all, I'd like to let my voice be heard and say "Hey! Men and women being different is not bad! It doesn't mean one sex is better ban eachother. We're individuals, and I'm feminine and proud of whom I am! I enjoy feeling feminine, so stop terrorizing men into being afraid to acknowledge it by always assuming the worst about whatever they say!"

And there's my soapbox, though I'd desperately like to hear what you guys think.

You're right :3.

EVERYTHING, good & bad, exists for a reason... I think the people that really get worked up by the "backhanded compliments" are the ones who feel they have something to prove. Whether they truly do or not... From the outside male perspective. It seems to me, that the independent women of the Feminist movement get extra riled up from those types of comments, BECAUSE of what they've been through. Not necessarily because of what the guy is saying. Some guys are completely oblivious to their phrases and how they might come off. Our culture has become so sensitive that when someone does say, "Hey that was really impressive, for a lady." That they get all tensed up and say, "Why? 'Cause I'm not supposed to be good enough, right??"
And in turn because our culture has become this way, even when I make that statement, I feel a sting of condescending tone within the example itself. It has backhanded to me, even though it shouldn't be... I think it's gotten to the point where nothing is objective any more... And when you think about it that way, that really sucks... =/

I totally agree with you that some men, - especially the sensitive ones out there ARE afraid to acknowledge women for their credibilities. We're afraid to compliment you... [using the general "you"] We're afraid of what you'll say to us the second we try to start a conversation with you - (a complete stranger). Those of us that harp on this, are afraid of what to say next and that we'll inevitably fuck it up... And then we do, and the cycle starts over... And yes, I do unfortunately speak from experience on that one...

Which is why Men take the Asshole route. The complete "I don't care what you think..." attitude. The cocksure, method of just saying whatever they want, and if something works, cool... I get it... I do. People play the game because they're forced to. Then they grow to hate the game. And then they get to the point where they say whatever. Sometimes they're successful and sometimes they aren't...
Just last night some asshole was hitting on my friend at the bar. I thought they were flirting and I was happy for her. Then when I wasn't paying attention, he apparently went too far with his "game". Suddenly I turned around to hear her say, "You're an asshole... FUCK YOU!" and I had to rush over there and get in his face and be all, "Hey man... are we GOOD HERE!!?"

I bring that up for two reasons. One being that, this guy had the wrong mentality. When my friend explained what they talked about, basically his game was to shit on everything she brought up. Stuff like TV shows and hobbies and music or whatever else. Finally when she said, something about him acting like a dick, he's like, "Oh yeah... you're finally getting it... how cute..." or something sick and idiotic like that. That's when she said what she said and I stepped in...
The second reason is from my perspective... It felt... REALLY good to be there for her. For the 5 seconds that I stared him down and he backed off, I was completely empowered, and I took her outside, and I felt like, "such a Man". Then my friend even went so far as to say to my girl, "Why didn't you TELL us about this?? Do you know how AWESOME he would've felt if he had to FIGHT HIM!!?"
His response shocked me, but it was also kinda true... I didn't want to fight him. But that whole manly, defending a girl's honor thing kicked in. There's no telling what I could've done had things gone south. I'm really glad they didn't though.

Anyway, that's like the exact opposite of Misogyny though. I do feel that if a Feminist heard that story though she'd wanna throw up and berate me about how much of an asshole I AM, for trying to do the right thing...
I dunno. I'd love to hear thoughts on that.

Those are all my stronger points on the matter. But in response to your final statement, I again fully agree with you =]. We ARE all Individuals and we all SHOULD be proud of who we are. I really don't understand why people can't just be cool with each other and respect each other through and through. Suddenly someone does something different, and then they say, that's weird... The other person then of course gets upset, arguments start and suddenly people don't like being around one-another. I hate it.... But I guess conflict is also unfortunately a necessary evil. It brings those of us that DO get it, closer together I suppose...

[Arpia]

Actually i think that those feminists that you wonder about berrating you for doing the right thing would claim that is exactly mysogyny. The reason being that you stepped in on behalf of a woman could imply to them that you felt a girl would need to be saved, that they need to be somehow looked after because they're not as 'strong' as you.
I've heard it happen, an old friend used to talk about his girlfriends friend, the way he told it: she HATED men with every fiber of her being, she goes to the store and theres a guy at the checkout - she has a problem. They watch a romantic flick together - she has a problem with it. ect.
I remember he mentions one time the three of them are out and a similar thing happens, she gets attention she clearly doesn't want and starts signaling to her friend to come over... so she send her boyfriend and he wards the guy off. So she then turns to him and starts firing off this verbal assault at him that she didn't need him looking out for her. Till his girlfriend decides you don't get to talk to my boyfriend like that for being a nice person, she asked for help - she got help, whats the need to complain? so they pretty much left her there.
I don't blame them. I mean would someone similar to that person take offense if they didn't have the right change for the bus or something and a stranger pays the rest of the fare that happens to be a male thinking doing a selfless act? or if they trip and it happens to be a guy that helps them up or whatever?

It's rediculous. Wouldn't that encourage people to just mind thier own business because being nice isn't worth the hassle?

[Metal X]

In the end people do just end up minding their own business, because it's the safer route... That's why we're in a very cold, keep-it-to-yourself mindstate all the time here in NY. And I know it's not just here.

Many of us decide that being nice just ISN'T worth the hassle after going through enough of that...

But that's the funniest part about the whole thing. Ironic I should say.. That what we think of as "Doing the right thing" can be considered as so morally wrong and horrible to someone else. That's the beauty of ethics though my friend.