[Flame]

I would say Cinnamon is a pretty important character.
I mean, the entire rebellion is after her because she is a walking force metal generator. She joins X and Zero so as to not be a helpless little girl. And in the end, says she feels she has grown strong.


Alia IS a pretty good character. she has a backstory relevant to X6's story, and was the romantic foil for X (I say was because X6 hinted at it, but we know everything built up from X4-5 was dropped after X6, both that and the Wily subplot)

Oh and theres Iris. even 'Sensei' Suetsugu thought of her as the heroine of the X series. (he was sad that she had to die)

[Phi-Zero]

Flame, on 26 April 2011 - 01:16 PM, said:

I would say Cinnamon is a pretty important character.
I mean, the entire rebellion is after her because she is a walking force metal generator. She joins X and Zero so as to not be a helpless little girl. And in the end, says she feels she has grown strong.


Alia IS a pretty good character. she has a backstory relevant to X6's story, and was the romantic foil for X (I say was because X6 hinted at it, but we know everything built up from X4-5 was dropped after X6, both that and the Wily subplot)

Oh and theres Iris. even 'Sensei' Suetsugu thought of her as the heroine of the X series. (he was sad that she had to die)

I don't want to bash any of the existing female characters. They all make a contribution to the X series. That said, how many female Hunters are there? And how many female Mavericks? The fact that the answer is zero feels like a missed creative opportunity.

I think the subtle argument against Dr. Regal's position is that adding more female characters would make the X series too "girly" or "uncool." I say that we can already tell from the Zero and ZX series that this is not the case.

Going forward, introducing more types of female characters will only amount to injecting the series with even more awesomeness.

[TheDoctor]

The problem is adding a female player character can cause some problems if not done right. I guarantee that if Axl was a girl, she would be the most hated character in the entirety of the Mega Man series. Why? Because Axl replacing X for the majority of the game was bad enough, if he was a girl it would add insult to injury. Now, if X was playable from the beginning that might not be a problem, but I digress.

Major problems with adding female player characters:

1) Girl usually acts like she's got something to prove. An annoying stereotype that is never used properly.

2) Girl is a faux action girl. She's supposedly tough, but never really shows it during the cutscenes.

3) Girl is an affirmative action girl. She was added for the sole purpose of having a female player character. (Aile and Ashe might fall into this category)

4) Girl is a Mary Sue. 'Nuff said.

This is not to say that it cannot be done right, this is just to point out the usual pitfalls game writers fall into. (please note this has very little bearing on important female NPCs, although the same pitfalls are still there)

[ryder]

what if there are alot of female reploid they just havent gone mavrick yet ( I know this is stupid but consider it)

[Phi-Zero]

TheDoctor, on 26 April 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

The problem is adding a female player character can cause some problems if not done right. I guarantee that if Axl was a girl, she would be the most hated character in the entirety of the Mega Man series. Why? Because Axl replacing X for the majority of the game was bad enough, if he was a girl it would add insult to injury. Now, if X was playable from the beginning that might not be a problem, but I digress.

Major problems with adding female player characters:

1) Girl usually acts like she's got something to prove. An annoying stereotype that is never used properly.

2) Girl is a faux action girl. She's supposedly tough, but never really shows it during the cutscenes.

3) Girl is an affirmative action girl. She was added for the sole purpose of having a female player character. (Aile and Ashe might fall into this category)

4) Girl is a Mary Sue. 'Nuff said.

This is not to say that it cannot be done right, this is just to point out the usual pitfalls game writers fall into. (please note this has very little bearing on important female NPCs, although the same pitfalls are still there)

Wow! You really nailed everything i hate about stereotypical female protagonists. I agree, if a female character were added, then she'd have to avoid being a stupid cliché. Even so, Aile and Ashe stand out as much as Vent and Grey do, and thus i find them refreshing. Aile and Vent have very similar personas, but neither feels like the shadow of the other, and Grey and Ashe are like day and night. That gives me hope that Capcom can handle strong female protagonists that add something to the story.

[Flame]

There is at least one female Maverick Hunter...

[Phi-Zero]

Nice catch! She might be a feminine-looking guy though. After all, Zero has the ponytail-thing going on.

Also, in the manga Storm Eagle was dating a fellow Hunter named Teal. Personally, i think that Teal is somewhat canonical in the games since Sting Chameleon in Mega Man Maverick Hunter X and the game's manual infer that Sigma took someone close to Storm Eagle hostage in order to force him to go Maverick, and one can assume the hostage was someone like Teal. That said, Sigma probably killed her anyway.

[Dogkarmachine O'Inary]

Quote

She might be a feminine-looking guy though.

I think they made the chest and hips pretty apparent there, lol.

I agree with Flame here. There are quite enough female characters already. Pretty important ones too. You can even play as a few such as Roll in Powered Up and the Navigators from X8. Not to mention the Command Mission females and the ZX protaganists. Eh, Flame listed them pretty much. You see...in games and anime if you have too many female characters in a certain series that isn't really female oriented, it starts leaning towards the nerdy, perverted fanboy service and cues companies to make models of the chicks. It just takes away from the whole feel. That's just how it seems. Though in the Mega Man franchise as a whole, I think the male/female character balance of importance is actually pretty level.

[Phi-Zero]

Mac, on 26 April 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

I think they made the chest and hips pretty apparent there, lol.

LMAO

Mac, on 26 April 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

I agree with Flame here. There are quite enough female characters already. Pretty important ones too. You can even play as a few such as Roll in Powered Up and the Navigators from X8. Not to mention the Command Mission females and the ZX protaganists. Eh, Flame listed them pretty much. You see...in games and anime if you have too many female characters in a certain series that isn't really female oriented, it starts leaning towards the nerdy, perverted fanboy service and cues companies to make models of the chicks. It just takes away from the whole feel. That's just how it seems. Though in the Mega Man franchise as a whole, I think the male/female character balance of importance is actually pretty level.

I disagree wholeheartedly. In my opinion, the X series feels needlessly male-dominated. Truthfully, the word "important" is probably a misnomer in this discussion. It's not just whether or not female characters have an impact on the story, or even "how many" there are; it's what roles they play in the story. As mentioned before, over half of the female characters in the series are confined to one game, namely Berkana and the Command Mission characters. Remember, there are 11 games in the X series excluding collections and remakes, so it's obvious that female representation isn't very evenly spread. The female characters that do appear frequently are the Navigators, only two of which (Iris and Alia) appear in more than one title. Again, while important, these two characters are featured in supporting roles, not as Hunters or Mavericks. Even Iris who ends up fighting Zero dies due to an inability to interface properly with Colonel's battle armor because she wasn't designed for combat.

Moreover, as evident by the treatment of the female characters in the ZX series and Command Mission, your suggestion that "perverted fanboy service" will invariably result seems unwarranted. Clearly, female characters in MegaMan games fit the "feel" of the franchise as much as their male counterparts, even in the action-packed X series.

As far as MegaMan being male- vs. female-oriented, i'd say that the franchise appeals to quite a number of females as evident by their presence on this website. To be honest, i believe one of the keys to the franchise's success is it's demonstrated ability to appeal to both genders.

Remember also, we as a group are biased in that we already love the series enough to be active participants on this website. We aren't taking into account the significant numbers of people who play the games that aren't already die-hard fans. Trust me, if this is something that bothers both Dr. Regal and me, someone who is nonetheless a hardcore X-fan (And we're male!), you can bet it's a put-off to more casual players, especially ones that are fans of games like the Zero and ZX series that include more nontraditional females.

[Vérité]

Physical items mean nothing. Zero has two boob lamps and Signas six of them. Sigma has one.

[Phi-Zero]

Gate, on 27 April 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

Physical items mean nothing. Zero has two boob lamps and Signas six of them. Sigma has one.

Ha ha. Very funny.

I'm not sure what your point is, but Regal and i went over the difference between sex and gender already... twice.

Bottom line: we don't know if Reploids have sexes, and it doesn't matter. What matters is that they have gender.

Despite their unusual cosmetic features, Zero, Signas, and Sigma all clearly identify as male.
That doesn't make them stand-ins for female characters.

[Dogkarmachine O'Inary]

Phi-Zero, on 27 April 2011 - 06:22 AM, said:

LMAO


I disagree wholeheartedly. In my opinion, the X series feels needlessly male-dominated. Truthfully, the word "important" is probably a misnomer in this discussion. It's not just whether or not female characters have an impact on the story, or even "how many" there are; it's what roles they play in the story. As mentioned before, over half of the female characters in the series are confined to one game, namely Berkana and the Command Mission characters. Remember, there are 11 games in the X series excluding collections and remakes, so it's obvious that female representation isn't very evenly spread. The female characters that do appear frequently are the Navigators, only two of which (Iris and Alia) appear in more than one title. Again, while important, these two characters are featured in supporting roles, not as Hunters or Mavericks. Even Iris who ends up fighting Zero dies due to an inability to interface properly with Colonel's battle armor because she wasn't designed for combat.

Moreover, as evident by the treatment of the female characters in the ZX series and Command Mission, your suggestion that "perverted fanboy service" will invariably result seems unwarranted. Clearly, female characters in MegaMan games fit the "feel" of the franchise as much as their male counterparts, even in the action-packed X series.

As far as MegaMan being male- vs. female-oriented, i'd say that the franchise appeals to quite a number of females as evident by their presence on this website. To be honest, i believe one of the keys to the franchise's success is it's demonstrated ability to appeal to both genders.

Remember also, we as a group are biased in that we already love the series enough to be active participants on this website. We aren't taking into account the significant numbers of people who play the games that aren't already die-hard fans. Trust me, if this is something that bothers both Dr. Regal and me, someone who is nonetheless a hardcore X-fan (And we're male!), you can bet it's a put-off to more casual players, especially ones that are fans of games like the Zero and ZX series that include more nontraditional females.

I believe my comments were kinda misunderstood. Female characters can be in the franchise just fine, in fact, the ones that are in the franchise do fit and have just purposes. Alia, all the Rolls, Tron, Iris. All of 'em. But the Mega Man franchise is a series with a focus more towards action, fighting, shooting, the works. That's not to say that females couldn't participate in those aspects, but it's just not necessary and not what most females in the series are designed for. I did say that the male to female character ratio is just right. A lot of females have important roles in-game and in the story. I just don't think there should be too many females (a good example of this over-saturation would be the modern Ninja Gaiden games. Play as Ryu and the other playables are female characters). Otherwise the franchise will be along the lines of Tenchi Muyo or Vandread (although I enjoy those animes). That is when all the convention dwellers want resin models of the chicks and things of that nature. I mean, the franchise is called Mega Man for a reason. In all of the series there are plenty of female supporting characters (some playable) that have vital roles, but to switch focus towards females moreso would alter the feel. They shouldn't be the main attraction, per se. I guess there's no real way I can relay my reasoning without it kinda going down the sexist and/or preference route. I just hope people understand what I'm getting at.

I am also well aware that a lot of females like the Mega Man franchise and that's fine. I feel the position of all the female characters within it give fans, male and female, something to root for versus the main male characters. It's just like I said, the balance between the sexes is just fine the way it is, I think. There is really no lack of female roles and attention as it is.

[Phi-Zero]

Mac, on 27 April 2011 - 04:29 PM, said:

I believe my comments were kinda misunderstood. Female characters can be in the franchise just fine, in fact, the ones that are in the franchise do fit and have just purposes. Alia, all the Rolls, Tron, Iris. All of 'em. But the Mega Man franchise is a series with a focus more towards action, fighting, shooting, the works. That's not to say that females couldn't participate in those aspects, but it's just not necessary and not what most females in the series are designed for. I did say that the male to female character ratio is just right. A lot of females have important roles in-game and in the story. I just don't think there should be too many females. Otherwise the franchise will be along the lines of Tenchi Muyo or Vandread. That is when all the convention dwellers want resin models of the chicks and things of that nature. I mean, the franchise is called Mega Man for a reason. In all of the series there are plenty of female supporting characters (some playable) that have vital roles, but to switch focus towards females moreso would alter the feel. They shouldn't be the main attraction, per se.

I am also well aware that a lot of females like the Mega Man franchise and that's fine. I feel the position of all the female characters within it give fans, male and female, something to root for versus male characters. It's just like I said, the balance between the sexes is just fine the way it is, I think. There is really no lack of female roles and attention as it is.

I disagree. There hasn't been one female Maverick excluding Ferham and Berkana (neither of which appears in a main-series game and both of which appear in only one game), nor has there been one female Hunter besides the nameless woman Flame found.

I adequately understood your point, but i think your fears are unsubstantiated. Case in point: a large number of females are already present in other series of the franchise like the ZX and Zero series and even the Battle Network and Star Force series, and none of them are any worse for it. If anything, the Zero series is even darker than the X series. Furthermore, how will adding new female characters make the X series less "focus[ed] towards action?" Again, has that happened in the ZX and Zero series? The answer is clearly no. Are people getting promiscuous "resin models of chicks" like Aile or Ashe yet? And why do you care what lonely fan-boys do in their spare time... at all?

If kickass female characters can be included, they should. And fans of the series have good reason to believe so.

Mac, on 27 April 2011 - 04:29 PM, said:

I guess there's no real way I can relay my reasoning without it kinda going down the sexist and/or preference route. I just hope people understand what I'm getting at.

No there isn't. If males were a minority or had few roles in the series, then you'd rightly be concerned. As i said before, it's not just how many females there are; it's also what roles they play.
And i'd like to see a greater variety of roles for female characters.

TheDoctor, on 26 April 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

Major problems with adding female player characters:

1) Girl usually acts like she's got something to prove. An annoying stereotype that is never used properly.

2) Girl is a faux action girl. She's supposedly tough, but never really shows it during the cutscenes.

3) Girl is an affirmative action girl. She was added for the sole purpose of having a female player character. (Aile and Ashe might fall into this category)

4) Girl is a Mary Sue. 'Nuff said.

This is not to say that it cannot be done right, this is just to point out the usual pitfalls game writers fall into. (please note this has very little bearing on important female NPCs, although the same pitfalls are still there)

Now this is a good point that Doctor made. Maybe the stereotypical female struggling for approval from her male peers made sense in fiction in the past, but now it's just an annoying cliché. In a way it's a terrible cycle; because the female character is described as having to prove herself, it indicates to the audience that her presence is extraordinary in the first place, thus indirectly perpetuating the stereotype she is supposed to disprove. Better female characters aren't so shallow.

Also, 'Mega Man X' and later series take place in the far future, and there is no reason to believe, given current socio-political trends, that past gender stereotypes will hold much sway in 2150. Thus, there shouldn't be anything unusual about female Reploids serving as Hunters or choosing to go against humanity as Mavericks. Especially Mavericks because they are after all Mavericks: they don't give a damn about the "social order." Anyway, female and male Reploids likely have more in common than even female and male human beings. All Reploids are designed for a purpose, so whatever their gender they are likely very effective at whatever they were initially created to do.

This is why i think Aile and Ashe, and to a lesser extent Ciel, are done so well; there isn't any indication that they are somehow inferior due to their gender or that they are supposed to be doing something else with their lives. They are who they are; they already know they're awesome.

[Dogkarmachine O'Inary]

Well, it seems you are focusing specifically on the X series. I am focusing on the entire franchise in which there is more than enough female characters to go about, of all types. If we are talking X series specific, then no, it doesn't really need any more female characters than it already has. It would more than likely alter the feel. While it's true the Zero series has a bit more female characters, they are not very different than what the other series females are. What TheDoctor says is true. If a female character or two or three or five were to be introduced they would most likely fall into one of those categories. To be honest, the type of female character that would have worked has already be introduced in Axl, and it works better being a male. The female characters that seem to satisfy your criteria or close to it have already been introduced in the ZX and Zero series and they work with what's presented around them and are important pieces to the story. Alia is also similar and in the X series...so I don't really see what the problem is. Are you wanting an up front fighter chick with that kick-ass statement? Like you say in the future, the female Reploids are designed to do what they are to do. Very seldomly is one designed to be a fighter, which is why females are seen in Navigators and Medics and such. They work better for those lines of duty. If it's a female Maverick you want, then sure, I don't see why not. Somewhat overdue I suppose. Optic Sunflower could have been the first, actually. =P

It seems that in the very desire of wanting to see more particular roles being played in female characters, you relay that female characters have something to prove anyway. Why must there be more female characters than necessary in a game series that doesn't really require them? That's the basic point here. It wouldn't be necessary for gameplay or story and the more there are, the less seriously people are going to take them. With a modest amount, the fandom and potential of the character can flourish moreso than with an over-abundance of them. Which is why I think the franchise and X series has enough females. That's not to say that maybe one or two more couldn't be introduced in the future, but having them take the spotlight wouldn't be right. The story wouldn't even warrant it really.

[Phi-Zero]

Looking back at some of my old posts, i found this ol' topic and decided it might be worth reviving.

Despite the fact that this thread was started by the infamous Dr. Regal, the role of females in the X series is certainly an interesting topic worth discussing.

Personally, i'm hoping someone will lend a female's perspective on this issue.

I'm probably not gonna add much more myself though since i've already said a lot. Nevertheless, i'll start this off.

Mac, on 27 April 2011 - 07:52 PM, said:

It seems that in the very desire of wanting to see more particular roles being played in female characters, you relay that female characters have something to prove anyway. Why must there be more female characters than necessary in a game series that doesn't really require them? That's the basic point here. It wouldn't be necessary for gameplay or story and the more there are, the less seriously people are going to take them. With a modest amount, the fandom and potential of the character can flourish moreso than with an over-abundance of them. Which is why I think the franchise and X series has enough females. That's not to say that maybe one or two more couldn't be introduced in the future, but having them take the spotlight wouldn't be right. The story wouldn't even warrant it really.

I like this point you made; in the process of showing females needing something to prove, you could be inadvertently saying that it's unusual they are there.
I guess my counterpoint would be that they do have something to prove in our world, because gender stereotypes still exist. But they might not in X's world.
Problems occur when you show females constantly needing to prove themselves in the fictional world; that's when i worry.
You can fool people into believing things have to be that way if you're not careful.

Personally, i think i'd be interesting to see a female Maverick in a main game, if not a female Hunter.
I doubt that Capcom would ever overcompensate in this regard though.

[TheDoctor]

What they need to do is make a CM2 (or an rpg that takes place after X8 but before CM). That way, they can add a female character, and if the fans think she was handled well enough, they can add her to the main series.

I'll be honest though, I don't think they need another playable character in general. X, Zero, and Axl have pretty much got the different gameplay styles covered. (Now if they wanted to do what they did in X8 by making the navigators playable, but this time, actually give them some dialogue, I wouldn't mind that)

[Phoebe Nocturne]

I freaking loved playing as Layer in X8. ♥

Now... I could have sworn I replied to this topic before, but I guess I didn't. Probably because of how it originally degenerated.

I'm always for more well-done female characters in any franchise that shows a noticeable lack. The worry I have is whether the writers and developers will do the character(s) well.

It's usually easier for game developers to default to male on characters in action games. Female characters, due in part to being rarer, are always more harshly judged. If they show obvious femininity and any signs of vulnerability at all, some might think they're just a doormat. But if they're strong and capable all the time, others think of them as a butch or a man's personality in a woman's form. (Having a woman with a man's personality is another issue in action games that actually does happen a lot... but sometimes it's perceived when it's not even there.)

That said, Aile and Ashe were both very well-done. The focus on them was making them characters fully realized in the main story, not "token girls". There were even a few female bosses in the ZX series, that weren't as developed... but since bosses usually boil down to one personality trait, they didn't differ much from their male counterparts.

The problem with Classic and X is that they've been male-dominated for so long, any female character immediately draws attention - moreso if she's on the same footing as the male main cast. Good points become better. Bad points become game-breakers. People love Splash Woman simply for being the first female boss in Classic, but what do we know about her? She's a mermaid robot that calls fish robots and uses a Laser Trident. I choose to think of her as the wielder of the most useful weapon in the game (perceived female strength)... some others think of her as the one who takes the most damage from the Mega Buster (perceived female weakness). Neither of which would be very noteworthy if she were male.

So... it really is a double-edged sword, and something that has to be handled very carefully. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I trust Capcom to do it well. (Inti Creates on the other hand... I believe could do just about anything. Give 'em the X franchise, and I'd be all for some new female characters. )

[TheDoctor]

Heck, can we just give Mega Man in general to Inti Creates? They seem to have the most in-depth plotlines, and they're more or less responsible for MM9 and 10 being as good as they were. They also made the superb Zero series, and the underrated and under-sold ZX series. I'd trust them with any of the Mega Man sidescrolling franchises.

Besides, as Phoebe Nocturne said, they do a pretty good job with the female characters they add. Granted, I found Ashe's personality annoying (she talked about her booty too much, IMO), but they still did a good job writing for her.

Heck, if they took over the X series, we could see some much needed fleshing out on Layer, Pallette, Signas, etc...

[Phoebe Nocturne]

TheDoctor, on 01 July 2011 - 04:20 AM, said:

Granted, I found Ashe's personality annoying (she talked about her booty too much, IMO), but they still did a good job writing for her.

She did love that word, didn't she? ^_^;

[Nemesis]

Phoebe Nocturne, on 01 July 2011 - 04:39 AM, said:

She did love that word, didn't she? ^_^;

"
OMG I thought it was sooo annoying, of ALL the words for "loot" they could have used they chose "booty."